An alternate solution to the Grandfather Paradox

Aug 7, 2014
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#1
What if, instead of the hefty requirement of a virtually infinite number of parallel universes, there is in fact only one single experiential universe, and when one commits the worst of time travel paradoxes, the quintessential grandfather paradox, the result is not a paradox, but instead the TT returns to his present time to be a man out of time. Meaning, nobody knows who the hell he is or why he has infiltrated the facility and is using the time machine. Let's review here, several on this forum have reported instances in their life when they either remember something happening that the rest of the world remembers distinctly differently, or they do not remember something that everyone else distinctly remembers have "always been that way". Examples are the dead celebrity and the overnight complete building, respectively. So there is empirical, er, uh, ... I mean to say anecdotal evidence at least that some people do seem to have some special ability to perceive what I prefer to call, "the original relevant timeline". Wouldn't the time traveler who killed off his grandfather be the supreme case of this phenomena, in that he remembers an entire life of his own that nobody else remembers. This would be the real peril in killing your ancestors, as none of your loved ones (let's hope the TT has some anyway) , ... would LOVE you. None of your family would know who you are. Your boss, the guy that runs the TT program, wouldn't know or believe you, unless you were really close to him and could tell him his deepest darkest secrets. I just can't wrap my head around how if you have the ability to move at will through time, how killing your grandfather would equate to your elimination, if you're the guy (or gal) with the Time machine, and you're alive and well. I find it easier to believe that you'd just return to a world where you never existed as far as anybody else was concerned, but you'd have a lifetime of memories locked in your head. Many scientist have preferred the multiverse explanation as the way to fit logic into the apparently illogical situation, but some who have posted here seem to suggest that other solutions to this paradox may exist.
 
Aug 15, 2014
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#2
I think there are two simple potential solutions to the grandfather paradox. I will list them in the order that is most likely.

(a) Time travel to the past is not possible and therefore the paradox doesn't actually exist in reality.

(b) If time travel to the past does exist in the future, we can be assured that our grandfather was never killed. The present, as we know it, is as it is after incorporating any interference from the future. So, even if I was deadset on going back and personally killing my grandfather, I can be assured that I will somehow be prevented. My very existence ensures that I never successfully gone back and killed him, even if I wanted to.

Moz
 
Aug 7, 2014
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#3
sounds like fate/destiny/predetermination/predestination you're talking about in option b above...
Fate is not scientifically explainable no matter how one may vainly attempt to spin it.
 
Aug 15, 2014
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#4
sounds like fate/destiny/predetermination/predestination you're talking about in option b above...
Fate is not scientifically explainable no matter how one may vainly attempt to spin it.
I don't think it's "fate" anymore than it is to say that it's fate that I exist because I exist.

Rather, I'm saying that because I do exist, I can be assured that my grandfather didn't die before he conceived my parent, even though it was possible during his time to have a time traveler come back and kill him.

So, rather than it being "fate" stopping me from killing him, were I determined to do as such, it would be more accurate to say I could predict that I am going to fail based upon the fact that I exist today. I don't know if that makes more sense.

Moz
 

Mylo.X.

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Dec 30, 2012
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#5
Descartes declared "I think, therefore I am".

The time-traveller declares, "I think, therefore my Grandfather is".
 
Aug 7, 2014
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#6
Descartes declared "I think, therefore I am".

The time-traveller declares, "I think, therefore my Grandfather is".
Either way, one would be a fool to even attempt it in the first place! I;m curious what Einstein and that guy who posted about the hijacking and Olympics being different than he remembered have to say about it, as i believe they both have memories that conflict with history.
 
Aug 15, 2014
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#7
Either way, one would be a fool to even attempt it in the first place! I;m curious what Einstein and that guy who posted about the hijacking and Olympics being different than he remembered have to say about it, as i believe they both have memories that conflict with history.
It's funny you mention those theories of conflicting memories. This week I was shown that Steve Perry of Journey was still alive. I was certain he died in the late 90's and that is why the band replaced him as lead singer.
 

Mylo.X.

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Dec 30, 2012
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#8
It's funny you mention those theories of conflicting memories. This week I was shown that Steve Perry of Journey was still alive. I was certain he died in the late 90's and that is why the band replaced him as lead singer.
What precisely do you remember Steve Perry passing away with? Cancer? Car accident? Over dose? Or was it just a general "in-the-back-of-your-mind" type feeling?
 
Aug 15, 2014
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#11
I announced quite confidently in a room of 10 people, "but too bad Steve Perry's dead." And everybody disagreed.

My best guess is that I'm simply mistaken and that I picked up that he died around the time Journey replaced him as lead singer.

Now, if Brad Delp from Boston comes back, then I'll know for sure something is up! I remember exactly what I was doing when I heard about his death.

Moz
 
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Einstein

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#13
If you keep asking around on forums, you may come across other people with the same memory of Steve Perry's passing.

When I mentioned Roger Ebert's passing in the mid 90's, another person came forward with the same memory. Also my ex-wife also recalls his passing in mid 90's as well.
 
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Mylo.X.

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#14
The most popular alive-again personalities seem to be Nelson Mandela, Billy Graham & Ernest Borgnine. Obviously, the only one of the 3 still alive now is Billy Graham. I have spoken to a few people who remembered the death of Mandela in the 80's when he was incarcerated on Robben Island.

Curiously, both Mandela and Graham were born in the same year, 1918. Borgnine was born in 1917. Both Borgnine and Mandela died aged 95. If Graham happened to pass away this year (perish the thought) he would also be 95.
 
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Aug 7, 2014
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#15
well I for one am a "believer" (for lack of substantial irrefutable evidence that can withstand criticism), that some folks just have the ability to remember the ORT (original relevant timeline), but exactly how I haven't resolved yet. A good friend of mine has an interesting interpretation of this, that if one can remember the ORT, then if means one is very close to the TT, or in fact is the TT, but I can't reconcile that idea with ORT experiences I've had. I've been meaning to post my ORT experiences, but I've been working long hours these past couple of weeks, and I have 3 cans of Long Island Iced Tea sitting here in front of me, and I have learned never to post while inebriated...
 
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Mylo.X.

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#16
A good friend of mine has an interesting interpretation of this, that if one can remember the ORT, then if means one is very close to the TT, or in fact is the TT, but I can't reconcile that idea with ORT experiences I've had. I've been meaning to post my ORT experiences.....
I have always speculatively thought of the alive-again phenomenon as a crossing of alternate realities as opposed to time-travel. But obviously my way of thinking has obvious problems such as this:

50 people have memories of Mandela dying in Prison in 1988. If those people then cross over into a reality whereupon Mandela is still alive in 1988, then what happened to the original people of 1988 (where Mandela did not die)? Did they cross over to a reality where Mandela died in the 1980's?

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear your account when time permits for yourself (no pun intended).
 

Gpa

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#17
OMG...Deja-vue all over again... I remember discussing this same topic before.
Oh yea... we did... it was here...
A Discovered Time Traveler | Time Travel Institute
:D
I'm really not trying to be a smart-ass. We discussed bad memory before and I offer it to this thread for more info without re-posting all the same stuff again. I'm trying to save some room on the internet. Don't want to overflow it.;)
This is one of Einstein's favorite topics, un-dead celebrities.:eek:
 

LanaLang

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#18
Memory is a terrible recordkeeper. Even in law, but especially in science, memory is considered fundamentally questionable. People remembering something differently or not noticing something until way after everyone else doesn't mean anything more than that person, like everyone else, has very faulty memory. Some people have better memories than others, but no one is a recording device.

On to the actual time travel discussion. The method of time travel will determine the relationship between causality and paradox. If a simple displacement is used, wherein a pattern is transmitted to another point on the Z-axis and then returned to the point of origin after the window of stability is closed, then the pattern is stable regardless of the alterations to the timeline, and the pattern which returns to the new timeline's present will be identical to the pattern which was transmitted from the original timeline.

However, if the subject is temporally ANCHORED, then yes, a paradox could be forced to occur in the "grandfatherly" fashion.

Paradox is a natural occurrence, wherein the timeline is placed into an unstable state. Paradoxes occur incrementally, counter to Human instinct, and when they reach a point of complete instability, the surrounding area collapses so that it may enter a stable state. An example of this occurring in three dimensions is when tunnels are cut underneath a solid surface. As the number of tunnels increases, the level of stability decreases. When the instability reaches a critical point, the surface collapses and becomes stable as a crater.

This is why paradoxes are not only dangerous to those incurring them, but also to those around them.
 
Feb 20, 2014
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#19
The most popular alive-again personalities seem to be Nelson Mandela, Billy Graham & Ernest Borgnine. Obviously, the only one of the 3 still alive now is Billy Graham. I have spoken to a few people who remembered the death of Mandela in the 80's when he was incarcerated on Robben Island.

Curiously, both Mandela and Graham were born in the same year, 1918. Borgnine was born in 1917. Both Borgnine and Mandela died aged 95. If Graham happened to pass away this year (perish the thought) he would also be 95.
I 'remember' Ernest Borgnine dying many years before he actually did... not so the other 2 ..... still strange though....
 
Aug 7, 2014
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#20
Well, my ORT post was put on hold when TTI went down, and for the past 3 weeks i've been criss-crossing Asia. Alas, perhaps next couple of weeks i'll get some long overdue R&R time and cen get online for more than a minute...
 

RainmanTime

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#21
What if, instead of the hefty requirement of a virtually infinite number of parallel universes, there is in fact only one single experiential universe,
All exists within the Ain, the Ain Soph, and the Ain Soph Aur. The greatest part of universal energy is something we cannot see nor directly detect (i.e. Dark Energy). That should be a big clue right there that we are all but shadows on Plato's Cave.

RMT

Edit to add: I should point out that "Ain Soph Aur" is translated as "Limitless Light". Consider just how special light is in our universe, and I am talking scientifically and the association of relativistic physics. What happens if one were able to travel at the speed of light? All space and time (and therefore mass) ceases to exist. By definition, one is in all places and all times. One has become eternal.
 
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KerrTexas

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#22
Other than people thought to having passed away and discovering they haven't, I sometimes wonder if we all shift through different dimensions that are very close together.

The reason why I wonder about this type of activity is because of odd experiences , people's personalities, mis-placed objects and differing memories. Such as knowing for a fact that I placed my car keys in a specific location, to find them somewhere else in the house the next day. Or looking for a particular piece of correspondence I know I placed into a file in the filing cabinet and it's missing. Calling the other party to ask for a copy of the paper to be REsent, am informed they never sent one. BUT then, a day or so later , putting a different piece of paper (file) into the filing cabinet, see the file I had been looking for - right flocking there !

With people; dealing with them on a daily basis, and for "years" their personality is a certain type. Then one day, their personality is completely different. It's like they're an entirely different person. It's like WoW, this guy was"always" grumpy, then, like magic, he's nice. Then the next day, he's the same grumpy guy again. Asking around if anything occurred in his life that could have caused a change in attitude, learn that nothing happened any different than any other day.

Wonder if this phenomenon also would explain why some people spout out different languages in their sleep? Languages they have no reason to know. Which I'm sure most of us have heard of happening.

And in the middle of the day, working away, suddenly stop and get a creepy feeling or thought of, " I don't belong here." The here not being a particular location, but a general over-all sense of something isn't right. And where historical events are different, such as people who are dead, then are alive.

It seem's some people seem to know this is happening, yet, across to the other end of the spectrum, others are totally oblivious.

Maybe for some people, this is more pronounced than for others, as far as the width of shifting through parallel dimensions ( or maybe the ability of 'remembering' ).

IF this is actually occurring, our 'soul' or 'subconscious' IS oscillating between different dimensions ( perhaps caused by solar flares? ), would this phenomenon be time traveling or simply traveling through different dimension's?
 
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PaulaJedi

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#23
And in the middle of the day, working away, suddenly stop and get a creepy feeling or thought of, " I don't belong here." The here not being a particular location, but a general over-all sense of something isn't right. And where historical events are different, such as people who are dead, then are alive.
I wonder the same things you do. I have a similar experience. Occasionally, I get this feeling that something is off. I can never pin point it. It's like the sun or atmosphere is different, but I don't really know for sure. I shrug it off as some type of shift in the universe. :)
 
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Cosmo

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#24
Is this the same sort of thing where you hear that an actor has died, then find out they're still alive or died "again"?

I swear Alec Guinness died in 1996; I even talked about it with my nerdy 6th grade friends... Then he dies again in 2000...
 

Einstein

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#25
Is this the same sort of thing where you hear that an actor has died, then find out they're still alive or died "again"?

I swear Alec Guinness died in 1996; I even talked about it with my nerdy 6th grade friends... Then he dies again in 2000...
I think lots of people chalk this up to faulty memory. But I think somethings a little fishy when I find out half a dozen other people have the same faulty memory as I do.
 

Mylo.X.

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#28
Other than people thought to having passed away and discovering they haven't, I sometimes wonder if we all shift through different dimensions that are very close together.

The reason why I wonder about this type of activity is because of odd experiences , people's personalities, mis-placed objects and differing memories. Such as knowing for a fact that I placed my car keys in a specific location, to find them somewhere else in the house the next day. Or looking for a particular piece of correspondence I know I placed into a file in the filing cabinet and it's missing. Calling the other party to ask for a copy of the paper to be REsent, am informed they never sent one. BUT then, a day or so later , putting a different piece of paper (file) into the filing cabinet, see the file I had been looking for - right flocking there !



IF this is actually occurring, our 'soul' or 'subconscious' IS oscillating between different dimensions ( perhaps caused by solar flares? ), would this phenomenon be time traveling or simply traveling through different dimension's?
I came across this story online and have heard many many more like it. I find it very fascinating;


Quote:

"Me and my family have had such events happen twice, one in which we lost two hours, one which was approx. 10 minutes. In the second one, we were on a plane, that started to have trouble coming onto landing. Everyone was panicking. Then "bloop" it was quiet and we were landing normally. My son and I (he was 17 at the time) looked at each other and asked each other if we dreamed what just happened? What DID just happen? When did the problems smooth out and everyone calm down? We didn't see the transition, either of us.

When the plane came to a stop, he said, "Mom, I think we died." And we began to explore the possibility that perhaps, we don't ever experience dying! Perhaps our consciousness just steps out before a trauma and moves to an alternate universe or reality, so similar to the one we were in, we don't know what happened. Even in an alternate reality, everyone we know could have "dopplegangers" that we continue our relations with - even if one version of them is crying for our loss in another! "
 

Ronnie ny

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#29
Is this the same sort of thing where you hear that an actor has died, then find out they're still alive or died "again"?

I swear Alec Guinness died in 1996; I even talked about it with my nerdy 6th grade friends... Then he dies again in 2000...
Do you know anyone else that remembers Alec Guinness dying in 1996?
 

Cosmo

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#31
Do you know anyone else that remembers Alec Guinness dying in 1996?
Unfortunately not... In 1996 I was in 6th grade in Clackamas, Oregon - Mount Scott Elementary in Mrs. Hendricks' class.

I specifically remember sitting there with my teacher listening to the radio broadast of the OJ Simpson verdict, then a few months later (from that same radio and surrounded by the same people), hearing that Alec Guinness had died... We were working on short stories after reading one of the books in the Tripods book series. This must have been in January, since the verdict was October 1995.

I remember sitting in that classroom working on my story. The announcement came on the radio that he'd died, and I remember everyone in our little "pod" of desks not being interested in finishing our work. We sat there trading one-liners from the movie.

After 6th grade I went to Sunrise Middle School which wasn't near the elementary school, and none of the people I hung out with were in the right district to attend with me. This was 18 years ago; I never had a reason to keep in touch with those people.

In 2000 (when he died again), I was in high school. I found out about it (again) while chatting with a friend on AOL on our shitty Macintosh Performa.
 
Aug 7, 2014
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#33
so lots of us on here have been abel to perceive the ripples/divergences that are easy to identify due to the popularity of the person involved. Makes the brane theory more believable than quilted multiverse, cyclic, landscape, or any of the other forms of parallel universe theories, now doesn't it?
 

Itheblaze

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#34
MyloX, I wonder if that's the root of deep depression for some. They woke up one day and felt something missing or lost. Not realizing their twin self has died. In another world. Even in this life, when a twin dies the other feels a part of them has truly gone.
 
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Mylo.X.

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#35
MyloX, I wonder if that's the root of deep depression for some. They woke up one day and felt something missing or lost. Not realizing their twin self has died. In another world. Even in this life, when a twin dies the other feels a part of them has truly gone.
That's an interesting take on it (that I've never heard conveyed before). That's something for me to ponder, for sure.
 

Gpa

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#36
There have been cases where someone famous became very sick but recovered so some thought, not having heard about the recovery, that the person had died. Also, there have been "incorrect" reports of a death, and again, people that didn't hear the retraction would be surprised to hear of the "actual" death at a later time. I imagine this may account for many of the "returned".
 
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#38
Roy Orbison holds the record for me. First he was dead in 1988. Then he was alive again in the early 2000's, dying again within the year. Next I heard he died early this decade (being unaware of his second resurrection). Now he's back to being dead in 1988.
 
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